Arundhati Roy: Thank you, Amy.

Amy Goodman: It's great to have you with us. Your response toPresident Bush's visit?

Arundhati Roy: Well, I must say that it's been one of the weirdesttimes I’ve lived through, because on the streets, you have these hundreds ofthousands of people protesting, and you have -- we have a government that’sbeen so obsequious that it makes your skin crawl, and we have stories in thecorporate press in India which are unbelievable about how Bush arrived with 16dogs that are staying in a five-star hotel and are not to be referred to asdogs, because they're actually officers of the U.S. Army.

We have stories about, you know -- the front-page story today in the majornewspaper is about Laura Bush shooting with Boombah the bear and Aanchoo andChamki, and the front-page story is why Bush missed his dessert at the banquet,and this whole nuclear deal, obviously, which sounds to me a bit like, you know,some -- I mean, I hate to be so rude, but it sounds like sort of like pimpsnegotiating how somebody should act with their client. You know, you can sort of[inaudible] the girl, but you can't kiss her, because it’s -- and it's alltheater, you know? The whole thing about what – whether the fast breederreactor will be included or not, and so on, because everybody knew that therewas no other way but this. And really, it’s a cover for all sorts of otherdeals that are being signed.

And yesterday on the streets, while I was there, there were, you know, 53widows, from my state of Kerala, of farmers who have committed suicide becauseof the closing net of debt around them. Tens of thousands of farmers havecommitted suicide. And yet, you know, he arrived here with these corporates likeADS and Cogentrix and Unocal. All of them have such dubious records. It's reallyunbelievable, and yet if you see the way the CEOs and the corporates are fallingover him -- and I have to mention this, that they couldn't find a public spacein India for Bush to speak, so he ended up -- the meeting was organized in theDelhi zoo, in the walls of the Purana Qila, which houses the Delhi zoo, where hewas going to speak to some rich people and some corporate people. But becausethe Parliament refused to have him there, the Red Fort was surrounded by, youknow, a Muslim population. It was too dangerous. Vigyan Bhawan was rejected asbeing not good enough for him, so -- and you have today, American soldiers onour streets preventing my friends from going into their own homes because LauraBush is going to drive past to have pictures taken with some orphans. It's justunbelievable, you know. The whole city is shut down. I can hear helicoptersflying around over my head.

Amy Goodman: Arundhati Roy, you were in the streets in Delhi?

Arundhati Roy: Yes, of course, I was.

Amy Goodman: What were you doing?

Arundhati Roy: I was there. In Delhi, there were demonstrations on twodays continuously. You know, there was one -- one was basically called by theJamaat-e-Islami. It was like huge demonstration. And yesterday’s was called byall the independent peoples’ movements, the Left Party and other mainpolitical parties. Everyone was just furious, you know.

And yet, if you looked at the Indian news, you know, the major corporateIndian news, it is as if they never happened, because everybody's just so busy,even the heads of television stations who were invited to the lunch with Bush,whether in the garbled journalists or corporate capital, they weren't sure. Sothey come out of this lunch, and they're being interviewed by their ownemployees, as if they’re sort of corporate heads. And everyone, on everychannel, they are telling you how Bush touched their hand or put his hand aroundtheir shoulder -- arm around their shoulder, and it’s as if the demonstrationsdidn’t happen. It’s unbelievable. In the English press [inaudible].

Amy Goodman: If you could explain again, he did not address Parliamentbecause people there would have protested?

Arundhati Roy: First, they wanted -- the government wanted him toaddress a joint session of Parliament, which Clinton did when he came. The M.P.sthreatened to heckle him and embarrass him, so that was not possible. Then theysaid, "Okay, can he speak at Vigyan Bhawan?" which is this sort of officialstuffy auditorium in Delhi, but that was considered too much of a comedown for aman of his charm and radical intellect, so then they said, "Okay, can he speakat the Red Fort?" which is from where the Prime Minister gives hisIndependence Day speech, but that was too dangerous because it's in the oldcity, and it’s, you know, full of Muslim terrorists.

But then, finally they said, "Okay, he's going to be in Purana Qila,"which is the Old Fort, which has the Delhi zoo inside. It’s a very beautifulold fort, but it was really interesting, because the Ministry of ExternalAffairs denies any responsibility for this meeting. Then, the Chamber ofIndustry and Commerce said, "We didn’t call the meeting." Then they foundthat the meeting had actually been called by the American ambassador, but thenthe Federation of the Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry said, "No, no,we've called the meeting." So the ambassador’s cards are invalid, and theywill – you know, guests whom we invited only allowed in. So, you know, on theface of it, there’s all these people phoning, and yet they don't know what todo because they're so scared of him appearing anywhere except in these hugelyexclusive hotels. He’s booked the whole of the Maurya Sheraton, the mostexpensive hotel in India, and the Meridian, where his dogs are living. And it'sjust crazy.

Amy Goodman: Arundhati Roy, what about the visit to the memorial forMahatma Gandhi?

Arundhati Roy: Well, you know, the memorial for Mahatma Gandhi is nowbecoming a favorite visiting spot for all kinds of war criminals. You had ArielSharon go there. Then you had the Burmese dictator go there. Now, we have Bush,and when Bush went, you know, apart from the fact that even in advance, peoplewere really upset about the fact that he was going there, even though – youknow, I mean, some of us, I mean, speaking for myself, I’m not a sort ofunquestioning fan of Mahatma Gandhi, but still, many people are, and he is thesymbol of nonviolence in India, you know. And to have this man coming there, andthen they sent in the dogs, first the dogs went in to sniff out, you know,whether somebody may have buried a bomb in the memorial, and then he went. So,you know, on the whole, I think almost when Bush leaves and the government andthe press, particularly the television and the mainstream newspapers, kind ofjust get a moment to look back and see what they've done and how they'vebehaved, I think it's going to be shameful, you know, because people are really,really angry.

Amy Goodman: Arundhati, how many people do you estimate were in thestreets?

Arundhati Roy: Well, you know, actually, it was difficult for me toestimate, because I was in there, you know? I didn't have a perspective, like Icouldn't, you know, climb a tree or something to see. So, I mean, thedemonstration that I was in, I think there were about 60,000 or 80,000 people,and the previous day, it was even more than that, because, you know, I mean,it's a nice thing about India that there are so many -- there's such a varietyof people, and sometimes they have differences with each other, like the Muslimorganizations that actually called the demonstration. It's not that they weresectarian organizations, but, you know, they were obviously outraged by thewhole cartoon controversy, and it was combined. And some people had slightlynuanced views about it, you know? So, there were different days, differentpeople, but still, at all times there were hundreds of thousands of people outthere on the streets.

Amy Goodman: And what specifically --

Arundhati Roy: In Bombay, as well as Delhi, as well as everywhereelse.

Amy Goodman: And what specifically are people protesting aboutPresident Bush?

Arundhati Roy: Well, in many – basically I think it falls in twocategories. One is just the Iraq war and, you know, the terrorism that he'sunleashed on the world. But in India, you know, the fact is that the economicpolicies of the Indian government, which this whole neo-con world which Bushembodies, actually has more of a resonance, because, you know, really, I have tosay this, that the real impact of all this is in the villages in India, andthere people are too poor to even, you know, really miss a day of work andtravel to a big city to protest. So, it's just not possible, you know? But theimpact of these policies is what the Congress pretended to be against when itwas campaigning in the elections. And then, as soon as they won the elections,they just resorted to, you know, the usual corporate policies and privatization[inaudible].

So, you know, that’s [inaudible] that it’s a double-pronged thing, andthat's why I think it's very important for us to understand that this nucleardeal that's being talked about is not just that. You know, it's really theumbrella for a million different other kinds of deals that are going on, whichwill make it impossible. You know, the Indian government is negotiating Indiainto a corner where, you know, you're not going to be able to -- you're tryingto pretend that you're making some equal deal, but actually, you’re officiallysigning a deal with an alligator. You know, it's not an equal partnership by anymeans.

Amy Goodman: Arundhati, one of the ways the media is characterizingthis protest is saying hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands of Muslimshave taken to the streets. What is your response to that, seeing it as a sort ofMuslim protest, that then people can understand what the demonstrations areabout?

Arundhati Roy: Well, it is true that hundreds of thousands of Muslimstook to the streets, but that was only one part, you know? There were hundredsof thousands of other people, too, and that's why I’m saying, there was such adiversity of protest, because those were on separate dates. They were onseparate days, like the protest I was at wasn't that, you know? And besides, Idon't understand why we should continue to be separating them. You know, Muslimsare also people on the street, you know, and they're a huge percentage ofIndia's population.

So --but, of course, the important thing in this is that, you know, onereason why India and the U.S. began to kind of cozy up was that this whole waron terror was sort of dovetailing into the communalization of India, which wasdone, of course, earlier by the Congress and thought to have peaked during theregime of the BJP, but in states like Gujarat, for example, it's like Nazisociety there. You know, the Muslims are being ghettoized, they are economicallyboycotted. You know, there are a few big cases of those who were killed in the2003 sort of pogrom, but otherwise, it’s a nasty, frightening situation.Hundreds of -- you know, some 150,000 driven from their homes, and that's allhappening in India today, you know? So the Bush administration is alsodovetailing into that bedrock of trying to create a communal divide.

Amy Goodman: We're talking to Arundhati Roy, who, too, is in thestreets protesting President Bush's visit. President Bush also went to Hyderabad,a hub of information technology. The New York Times reported Bush told anentrepreneur there, quote, "People do lose jobs as a result ofglobalization, and it's painful for those who lose jobs," he said. Can youtalk about the significance of this trip?

Arundhati Roy: Well, you know, first of all, to go to a country, whichis basically a rural economy, and talk about jobs, is [inaudible]. But second ofall, you know, since the so-called economic reform regime began, the number offarmers that have committed suicide is in the tens of thousands in India and inAndhra Pradesh, one of the states worst hit by that. So Bush nor the Indiangovernment is talking about the fact that Andhra Pradesh is overrun by a radicalarmed struggle, Maoist armed struggle, you know? Every year, 200-300 people arekilled, you know, disappeared in what they call "encounters" in AndhraPradesh. And the previous Chief Minister [N. Chandrababu Naidu] escaped with hislife. He lost the elections because he used to refer to himself as a C.E.O. ofAndhra Pradesh, not as a Chief Minister, you know? So, it's ridiculous for himto commentate [inaudible] in India.

While they talk about this new big economy and the Sensex has crossed 10,000,they forget to mention that 1.1% of Indians have stocks in the stock market, andall these farmer suicides, they’re not counting, of course. Women committingsuicide are not counted as farmers, because the land isn’t in their name.There's a sort of garroting of the rural economy. Then, there's a whole businessof trying to take over, you know, the seeds, corporatize agriculture, makeeverybody somehow beholden to the corporates, which is something that's going toresult in mayhem.

Amy Goodman: President Bush heads from India to Pakistan tomorrow, andthere is a report he might go to Karachi, where the suicide bomb attack occurredThursday outside the U.S. consulate there that killed an American diplomat andat least three other people. Can you talk about the significance of the trip toPakistan, as well, and then this unprecedented deal that the President is makingwith India around getting them, selling them nuclear fuel and reactor componentsthat would end this decades-long moratorium?

Arundhati Roy: Well, nobody seems to have been suffering from thedecades-long moratorium, so I don't know why we're acting if it's some terriblething, some terrible prison that we are being released from. My position, whenIndia conducted the nuclear test was that, you know, that now that you’ve donethis, you're going to have to play by their rules, so it's not actually thatyou're freeing yourself, but you're selling yourself into kind of nuclearbondage, and this is exactly what is happening, that you’re no longer able tomake an independent decision because you’re just going -- it's just like anorchestra.

You know, if you see – I mean, I've just been watching how the whole thingwas scripted, you know? You see that Volcker Committee report that came outabout, you know, about who had broken the sanctions and dealt with SaddamHussein. First of all, you know, that just set the tone for the fact that thesanctions were right and whoever built them was wrong. The External AffairsMinister in India had to resign because actually he was the one that put thespoke in the wheel of Indian troops being sent to Iraq. Then the Minister forPetroleum was chucked out because he was trying to do the petroleum deal. Thenthe King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia was sent here, you know, to say, "No, youcan take oil from us." Then the Indian Prime Minister has a kind of roundtableconference about Kashmiri people who all agree with them anyway. So, you know,it's not really anything. But the U.S. – as mentioned it in his Asia Societyspeech.

Then we have this whole drama about fast breeder reactors being included ornot included. Well, all of us know that that was all going to happen in India.So the theater is over now, and the conquest is complete. You know, that you aregoing to now play by the rules, and there are so many points of contact that ifyou disagree about one thing, pressure will be brought on from the 99 others tomake you fall into line. That's the situation. Pakistan, of course, is an oldally of America's, and, you know, I keep joking about it: They’re like twobegums in the Bush – in the Sheikh Bush’s harem, you know, vying with eachother for his attention, and that's the situation, as I see it.

Amy Goodman: Finally, Arundhati Roy, you are headed to Pakistan, notto follow President Bush, but for the World Social Forum that will be takingplace later this month. Can you talk about what you'll be saying there and thesignificance of this forum on the heels of this visit?

Arundhati Roy: Well, actually, I’m not headed there, because -- Iknow that my name was announced, but that was done without anybody asking me.And, you know, I’m really thinking about all these things too much to be ableto go and speak at the World Social Forum now, because I’m very worried about,you know, all of us who are involved in these things, spend too much of ourenergy sort of feeling good about the World Social Forum, which has now becomevery NGO-ized and, you know, a lot of – it’s just become too comfortable astage. And I think it’s played a very important role up to now, but now Ithink we’ve got to move on from there, and I've already said this at aprevious World Social Forum job, and I really don't want to, you know, carry ondoing something when the time is over for it, you know? I think we have to comeup with new strategies.

Amy Goodman: Well, Arundhati Roy, I want to thank you very much forbeing with us and speaking to us from New Delhi. Arundhati Roy is the acclaimedwriter and activist, has written a number of books, including The OrdinaryPerson's Guide to Empire, The Checkbook and the Cruise Missile, WarTalk, a book of essays, and what she is most well known for around theworld, The God of Small Things.